I ask this with all due respect Ajai. Just out of curiosity what is wrong with the-MODERN-Christian in your view Ajai? Please do be specific...
In other words what is wrong with say, oooh, me? In you view, does Jesus lament my immorality? You know, even with mercy, and forgiveness? Again, please do be specific. You seem to know how Jesus laments me. I am looking for insight into why he laments me so; in your view of course…
Are we all the same Ajai? When I say "we" I do of course mean-MODERN-Christians. Can you lump every-MODERN-Christian into a neat little group? Is it just the Baptists? The Lutherans? Presbyterians? The Methodists? How about the Quakers? Mennonites? What about Jews who may not believe in Jesus but who do hold belief in God? Where do I get placed Ajai? Can you make that determination for me? Based on your knowledge of me as a-MODERN-Christian; please tell me what is (Specifically) wrong with me?
"Among those leveled by Doe #2 is that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe":
To that end, Mr. Prince intentionally deployed to Iraq certain men who shared his vision of Christian supremacy, knowing and wanting these men to take every available opportunity to murder Iraqis. Many of these men used call signs based on the Knights of the Templar, the warriors who fought the Crusades.
Mr. Prince operated his companies in a manner that encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life. For example, Mr. Prince's executives would openly speak about going over to Iraq to "lay Hajiis out on cardboard." Going to Iraq to shoot and kill Iraqis was viewed as a sport or game. Mr. Prince's employees openly and consistently used racist and derogatory terms for Iraqis and other Arabs, such as "ragheads" or "hajiis." "
Picture, if you will, that all religions are essentially the same, each practitioner is placed upon a continuum or spectrum from mystic to militarist. Fundamentalism is in between mystic and militarist.
Jesus Christ was a mystic. While advocating social change he was his territories most famous practitioner of elevated consciousness.
All of existence, is based upon mercy and forgiveness.
Christ consciousness can exist in anybody, whether they call themselves Christian or not. When Christ said 'I am the way and the light,' he wasn't saying everyone must be a Christian, he was saying the way and the light is inside of us.
I tend to dislike evangelicals, but sects and labels are unimportant, what is important is consciousness.
People who have no regard for other peoples, who sees a different person and does not see them as the same as themselves are not Christ conscious. People who do not see others as a reflection of themselves, are not connected to God. This includes me at times, it would be ideal for me to be so Christ conscious that I can have love for Erik Prince.
Destroying peoples, and attempting to commit genocide, is the farthest thing from this Christ consciousness I can think of, but they do it in the name of Christ.
Where do you fall, I don't know exactly. I do know that when I criticize the way power has corrupted the religion, and you interpret that as me criticizing your religion, your response was, and it is a response no other defender of Christianity on that thread has offered was: I love you.
That to me, is a statement rooted in Christ consciousness. Whether there is a flaw in you, and only you know this, depends on how willing you are to turn a blind eye to the horrors and humanities inflicted upon others by your brethren in the name of your deity.
Fair enough Ajai... I agree that power corrupts religion. It corrupts us all, Christian and otherwise... I will be the first to say that there are people out there who represent Christianity, (Past/Present) and do it very badly. I too am one of those people sometimes, and I admit it.
I do however try my very best to understand that I am one of many who do and that is often seen and put into the colletive "Christian" thing.
I would caution though, just like everyone else in groups like: Race, orientation, ect there those who are different. If I can change one persons mind about "Christians" simply by loving then I have done my job as a "Christian".
I identify with those in my group who try to treat people with love and respect. Now love and respect often comes with rebuke, and disagreements. Kind of like a parent child relationship. We may disagree, and even fight, but we still love each other. I don't dismiss people simply because they do not beleive as I do. I do however get that from people who do beleive as I do... I suppose that's what I was getting at in a long drawn out way :)
"I don't dismiss people simply because they do not beleive as I do. I do however get that from people who do [not] beleive as I do..."
What do you mean by 'dismiss'?
It doesn't take religion to treat others with love and respect. Nor does it take the specific religion of Christianity to hold love and respect in high regard. I think the Dalai Lama would agree.
I would extend the child/parent metaphor is everyone, and the child in this analogy becomes the Christian. The nice thing about parenting is there is a kind of selflessness involved, though the rewards are plentiful.
I agree to be weary of labels, as anbody can call themselves a Christian. However are you not labeling by omission when you discern 'those who believe as I do,'from those who don't? It seems to me if those affiliated with the group point to its unanimity, it would logically follow that others might lump them into a collective.
Similarly, as power does indeed corrupt, it would follow suit that those with more power are more susceptible to corruption, in this case the Christian majority. This brings me back to my original point, that the church (on the whole as represented by the collective) is so corrupted by power that it has lost touch with its mission, and it i no longer recognizable as what it once was.
The law of reciprocity dictates, that if you have felt dismissed by someone, it is likely that at one time they were dismissed by you.
When I say dismiss I mean exactly that. I have felt Dismissed and/or thought less of simply because of what I believe at various times throughout my life. I do believe I was passed over for a job because of it once.
I do expect it and that's fine. I understand the skepticizism and even struggle with my own understanding of some things. Faith is a hard thing to hold onto, and yet I enjoy the battles I face.
I also agree that it doesn't take or require "religion" or "Christianity" to hold love and respect in high regard. I was simply trying to give a perspective or point of view in my own belief(s).
Ajai I agree with you. Power is a great and corrupting thing. Now, when I say “great” I don't mean something wonderful. Bad things can be great in scale (I think).
The only reason I bring up the parent child relationship analogy is to illustrate the point that love is many things, even "tough". I love my kids yet I will let them know when they have done something wrong. Doesn't mean I don't love them any less or I am a bad person for daring to say or think someone is wrong. In fact I would say that shows that I do...
As far as labeling by omission goes I suppose you could be right. It's a two way street though. Yeah for being human!
As far as my affiliation to a "collective" group... I go to a small community church with no specific denomination. I was however, raised Presbyterian. Which I would add, has a unique power structure similar to our representative form of Government. I think that this is a check/balance of power like you refer to.
Currently I go to church with my community. I go with farmers, loggers, cops, and elderly women who would do anything for me. We go to church together as a group and identify with each other because we are similar in our values, and beliefs. Does that mean I fall line step with everyone? Of course not. Does that make us evil? Not by a long shot!
Last but not least I do find your comment on the law of reciprocity ironic. It (the law) can basically be summed up by saying “the golden rule”. Turned on its head I suppose we could go into an eye for an eye too. You know, "to return in kind or even in another kind or degree".
The only Christian, I mean, Christians also help there own, but what if you don't have any of your own around you? What if everyone thought you were an outcast?
That would be the same situation without the benefit of being the dominant culture.
Speaking of movies (huh?), I read a good quote in a review of District 9, that sometimes we have to be completely alienated to discover our humanity.
p.s discrimination sucks, you can do any job you want. If you wanna be a rabbi, be a rabbi, I'd be a damn good scout leader if I do say so myself.
Speaking of the small screen (too)... This may surprize everyone but I love the show "The West Wing". I watch re-runs on Bravo just about daily. The writing on this show was outstanding. Here's a link I find especially interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqgD7lGneU
Watch the entire show and all seasons to get further context...
I can only speak for our church, but we do alot for the community and various ministries through out the world. I can't think of the name of it off hand, but one of my favorites is:
We take a shoe box, or just a box which ever you choose. We decorate it, and put anything and everything (Letters, toys, candy, toothbrushes, clothing, money ect) we can fit into to it and send it to various locations around the world usually around Christmas time.
We usually get a letter back and have sent a few back and forth after the fact. It's a great thing, and I love to do it. I look forward to that time of year.
Yes we do help our own, and again I don't see that as a bad thing.
Scout leader huh? I am assuming you are talking about their anti-gay stance? I guess I don't see why being gay means you are unable to keep your hands to yourself. I have run across far too many "Straight" sex offenders were are far worse than a good scout master who happens to be gay. If it were up to me, I'd say if you passed a background check have at it... That's me...
Should I get lumped into the "Collective" anti-gay group because that's their policy and they're are "faith" based? I would submit no.
Unfortunately it is not up to you nor I. So I am stuck, there are things that people won't let me do because of the person that I am. These people use your faith to justify this, so it is not me who lumps you into this category.
True virtue is speaking out against injustice anywhere, no matter how difficult it may be to speak, or how popular and accepted that injustice is.
Some denominations are there, and I appreciate that, for to halt the spread of injustice is to truly be at the forefront of morality.
“I have felt Dismissed and/or thought less of simply because of what I believe at various times throughout my life. I do believe I was passed over for a job because of it once.”
Which is sad.
I, too, have experienced this as an atheist, anywhere from pity to apparent fear that the Devil has overpowered my soul. Good thing we aren’t in Salem in 1692. I also experienced job discrimination because of it in a college department that was dominated by Christians who let it be known that they were so and were very cliquish. Not to mention that I was told by the Department Head to not go anywhere near the subject of human evolution in a Biology class I taught. I was told that ‘they cover that in Anthropology, so there is no need to discuss it in Biology (twist, twist).” Yes, a public college.
"I guess I don't see why being gay means you are unable to keep your hands to yourself. I have run across far too many "Straight" sex offenders were are far worse than a good scout master who happens to be gay. If it were up to me, I'd say if you passed a background check have at it... That's me"
If only everyone thought this way. As if homosexuals were rabid dogs or something...it's just so disgusting that people have that much misunderstanding.
My son was in Scouts for awhile and I am aware that there are movements, although too sparse and too slow, to counter this thinking in Scouts. I think Corvallis was fighting this, although it has been a long time since I followed what was going on.
"Speaking of movies (huh?), I read a good quote in a review of District 9, that sometimes we have to be completely alienated to discover our humanity."
Well, I saw Goodbye Solo. It was ok. I did like the friendship that evolved between Solo and the old man, even though the old man was too selfish to let that keep him from his mission.
Anywho...
Yes, I think that only when we experience discrimination ourselves can we begin to get close to having empathy for others who do. Although I won't pretend to have experienced what homosexuals or Muslims (in the US) have experienced.
I did have a very enlightening experience in Baja once. My family and I were in one of the less touristy places and our villa host told us where to go shopping for groceries. We were literally stared down with utter disdain in the grocery store by a Mexican woman. We were probably one of the only groups of caucasians in the store at that moment.
I will never forget how uncomfortable I felt and how heartbreaking it was for me to see my son go through that. I wouldn't trade that experience for the world, though, as now I got just a glimpse of how 'people of color' felt in my WASP country.
Good response to another stupid article that displays everything that is wrong with modern Christianity.
ReplyDeleteJesus would lament the immorality of these people.
I ask this with all due respect Ajai. Just out of curiosity what is wrong with the-MODERN-Christian in your view Ajai? Please do be specific...
ReplyDeleteIn other words what is wrong with say, oooh, me? In you view, does Jesus lament my immorality? You know, even with mercy, and forgiveness? Again, please do be specific. You seem to know how Jesus laments me. I am looking for insight into why he laments me so; in your view of course…
Are we all the same Ajai? When I say "we" I do of course mean-MODERN-Christians. Can you lump every-MODERN-Christian into a neat little group? Is it just the Baptists? The Lutherans? Presbyterians? The Methodists? How about the Quakers? Mennonites? What about Jews who may not believe in Jesus but who do hold belief in God? Where do I get placed Ajai? Can you make that determination for me? Based on your knowledge of me as a-MODERN-Christian; please tell me what is (Specifically) wrong with me?
Hi COE, those are good questions, I need a little time to compose a thoughtful answer, so check back soon...
ReplyDeleteWill do man... Hey by the way, how was your trip? Where did you go?
ReplyDeleteDetroit, for a cousins wedding. Had a very nice time.
ReplyDelete"Among those leveled by Doe #2 is that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe":
ReplyDeleteTo that end, Mr. Prince intentionally deployed to Iraq certain men who shared his vision of Christian supremacy, knowing and wanting these men to take every available opportunity to murder Iraqis. Many of these men used call signs based on the Knights of the Templar, the warriors who fought the Crusades.
Mr. Prince operated his companies in a manner that encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life. For example, Mr. Prince's executives would openly speak about going over to Iraq to "lay Hajiis out on cardboard." Going to Iraq to shoot and kill Iraqis was viewed as a sport or game. Mr. Prince's employees openly and consistently used racist and derogatory terms for Iraqis and other Arabs, such as "ragheads" or "hajiis." "
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090817/scahill
Picture, if you will, that all religions are essentially the same, each practitioner is placed upon a continuum or spectrum from mystic to militarist. Fundamentalism is in between mystic and militarist.
ReplyDeleteJesus Christ was a mystic. While advocating social change he was his territories most famous practitioner of elevated consciousness.
All of existence, is based upon mercy and forgiveness.
Christ consciousness can exist in anybody, whether they call themselves Christian or not. When Christ said 'I am the way and the light,' he wasn't saying everyone must be a Christian, he was saying the way and the light is inside of us.
I tend to dislike evangelicals, but sects and labels are unimportant, what is important is consciousness.
People who have no regard for other peoples, who sees a different person and does not see them as the same as themselves are not Christ conscious. People who do not see others as a reflection of themselves, are not connected to God. This includes me at times, it would be ideal for me to be so Christ conscious that I can have love for Erik Prince.
Destroying peoples, and attempting to commit genocide, is the farthest thing from this Christ consciousness I can think of, but they do it in the name of Christ.
Where do you fall, I don't know exactly. I do know that when I criticize the way power has corrupted the religion, and you interpret that as me criticizing your religion, your response was, and it is a response no other defender of Christianity on that thread has offered was: I love you.
That to me, is a statement rooted in Christ consciousness. Whether there is a flaw in you, and only you know this, depends on how willing you are to turn a blind eye to the horrors and humanities inflicted upon others by your brethren in the name of your deity.
Or rather, our deity.
Fair enough Ajai... I agree that power corrupts religion. It corrupts us all, Christian and otherwise... I will be the first to say that there are people out there who represent Christianity, (Past/Present) and do it very badly. I too am one of those people sometimes, and I admit it.
ReplyDeleteI do however try my very best to understand that I am one of many who do and that is often seen and put into the colletive "Christian" thing.
I would caution though, just like everyone else in groups like: Race, orientation, ect there those who are different. If I can change one persons mind about "Christians" simply by loving then I have done my job as a "Christian".
I identify with those in my group who try to treat people with love and respect. Now love and respect often comes with rebuke, and disagreements. Kind of like a parent child relationship. We may disagree, and even fight, but we still love each other. I don't dismiss people simply because they do not beleive as I do. I do however get that from people who do beleive as I do... I suppose that's what I was getting at in a long drawn out way :)
I do thank you for your thoughtfull response.
Should have been, Do not...
ReplyDeleteYou do not thank me for my thoughtful response?
ReplyDeleteNo.... Damn, I am sorry that does look like that doesn't it?
ReplyDelete"I do however get that from people who do beleive as I do..."
Should have been, "people who do not" Sorry...
"I don't dismiss people simply because they do not beleive as I do. I do however get that from people who do [not] beleive as I do..."
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by 'dismiss'?
It doesn't take religion to treat others with love and respect. Nor does it take the specific religion of Christianity to hold love and respect in high regard. I think the Dalai Lama would agree.
Just playing, I think I knew what you meant.
ReplyDeleteI would extend the child/parent metaphor is everyone, and the child in this analogy becomes the Christian. The nice thing about parenting is there is a kind of selflessness involved, though the rewards are plentiful.
I agree to be weary of labels, as anbody can call themselves a Christian. However are you not labeling by omission when you discern 'those who believe as I do,'from those who don't? It seems to me if those affiliated with the group point to its unanimity, it would logically follow that others might lump them into a collective.
Similarly, as power does indeed corrupt, it would follow suit that those with more power are more susceptible to corruption, in this case the Christian majority. This brings me back to my original point, that the church (on the whole as represented by the collective) is so corrupted by power that it has lost touch with its mission, and it i no longer recognizable as what it once was.
The law of reciprocity dictates, that if you have felt dismissed by someone, it is likely that at one time they were dismissed by you.
Or more, more specifically, someone else..
ReplyDeleteVicky, Hello, and welcome to the discussion :)
ReplyDeleteWhen I say dismiss I mean exactly that. I have felt Dismissed and/or thought less of simply because of what I believe at various times throughout my life. I do believe I was passed over for a job because of it once.
I do expect it and that's fine. I understand the skepticizism and even struggle with my own understanding of some things. Faith is a hard thing to hold onto, and yet I enjoy the battles I face.
I also agree that it doesn't take or require "religion" or "Christianity" to hold love and respect in high regard. I was simply trying to give a perspective or point of view in my own belief(s).
Imagine how it would feel to be the only one.
ReplyDeleteAjai I agree with you. Power is a great and corrupting thing. Now, when I say “great” I don't mean something wonderful. Bad things can be great in scale (I think).
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I bring up the parent child relationship analogy is to illustrate the point that love is many things, even "tough". I love my kids yet I will let them know when they have done something wrong. Doesn't mean I don't love them any less or I am a bad person for daring to say or think someone is wrong. In fact I would say that shows that I do...
As far as labeling by omission goes I suppose you could be right. It's a two way street though. Yeah for being human!
As far as my affiliation to a "collective" group... I go to a small community church with no specific denomination. I was however, raised Presbyterian. Which I would add, has a unique power structure similar to our representative form of Government. I think that this is a check/balance of power like you refer to.
Currently I go to church with my community. I go with farmers, loggers, cops, and elderly women who would do anything for me. We go to church together as a group and identify with each other because we are similar in our values, and beliefs. Does that mean I fall line step with everyone? Of course not. Does that make us evil? Not by a long shot!
Last but not least I do find your comment on the law of reciprocity ironic. It (the law) can basically be summed up by saying “the golden rule”. Turned on its head I suppose we could go into an eye for an eye too. You know, "to return in kind or even in another kind or degree".
Post script: I still love you Ajai...
Lonely I would guess... What's your point?
ReplyDeleteThe only Christian, I mean, Christians also help there own, but what if you don't have any of your own around you? What if everyone thought you were an outcast?
ReplyDeleteThat would be the same situation without the benefit of being the dominant culture.
Speaking of movies (huh?), I read a good quote in a review of District 9, that sometimes we have to be completely alienated to discover our humanity.
p.s discrimination sucks, you can do any job you want. If you wanna be a rabbi, be a rabbi, I'd be a damn good scout leader if I do say so myself.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the small screen (too)... This may surprize everyone but I love the show "The West Wing". I watch re-runs on Bravo just about daily. The writing on this show was outstanding. Here's a link I find especially interesting:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqgD7lGneU
Watch the entire show and all seasons to get further context...
I can only speak for our church, but we do alot for the community and various ministries through out the world. I can't think of the name of it off hand, but one of my favorites is:
We take a shoe box, or just a box which ever you choose. We decorate it, and put anything and everything (Letters, toys, candy, toothbrushes, clothing, money ect) we can fit into to it and send it to various locations around the world usually around Christmas time.
We usually get a letter back and have sent a few back and forth after the fact. It's a great thing, and I love to do it. I look forward to that time of year.
Yes we do help our own, and again I don't see that as a bad thing.
Scout leader huh? I am assuming you are talking about their anti-gay stance? I guess I don't see why being gay means you are unable to keep your hands to yourself. I have run across far too many "Straight" sex offenders were are far worse than a good scout master who happens to be gay. If it were up to me, I'd say if you passed a background check have at it... That's me...
Should I get lumped into the "Collective" anti-gay group because that's their policy and they're are "faith" based? I would submit no.
Another scene from "The West Wing" to put perspective to faith:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5RGxE2_G0I
Unfortunately it is not up to you nor I. So I am stuck, there are things that people won't let me do because of the person that I am. These people use your faith to justify this, so it is not me who lumps you into this category.
ReplyDeleteTrue virtue is speaking out against injustice anywhere, no matter how difficult it may be to speak, or how popular and accepted that injustice is.
Some denominations are there, and I appreciate that, for to halt the spread of injustice is to truly be at the forefront of morality.
Thanks for the clips, I haven't seen much of that show. Martin Sheen is awesome.
ReplyDelete“I have felt Dismissed and/or thought less of simply because of what I believe at various times throughout my life. I do believe I was passed over for a job because of it once.”
ReplyDeleteWhich is sad.
I, too, have experienced this as an atheist, anywhere from pity to apparent fear that the Devil has overpowered my soul. Good thing we aren’t in Salem in 1692. I also experienced job discrimination because of it in a college department that was dominated by Christians who let it be known that they were so and were very cliquish. Not to mention that I was told by the Department Head to not go anywhere near the subject of human evolution in a Biology class I taught. I was told that ‘they cover that in Anthropology, so there is no need to discuss it in Biology (twist, twist).” Yes, a public college.
"I guess I don't see why being gay means you are unable to keep your hands to yourself. I have run across far too many "Straight" sex offenders were are far worse than a good scout master who happens to be gay. If it were up to me, I'd say if you passed a background check have at it... That's me"
ReplyDeleteIf only everyone thought this way. As if homosexuals were rabid dogs or something...it's just so disgusting that people have that much misunderstanding.
My son was in Scouts for awhile and I am aware that there are movements, although too sparse and too slow, to counter this thinking in Scouts. I think Corvallis was fighting this, although it has been a long time since I followed what was going on.
"Speaking of movies (huh?), I read a good quote in a review of District 9, that sometimes we have to be completely alienated to discover our humanity."
ReplyDeleteWell, I saw Goodbye Solo. It was ok. I did like the friendship that evolved between Solo and the old man, even though the old man was too selfish to let that keep him from his mission.
Anywho...
Yes, I think that only when we experience discrimination ourselves can we begin to get close to having empathy for others who do. Although I won't pretend to have experienced what homosexuals or Muslims (in the US) have experienced.
I did have a very enlightening experience in Baja once. My family and I were in one of the less touristy places and our villa host told us where to go shopping for groceries. We were literally stared down with utter disdain in the grocery store by a Mexican woman. We were probably one of the only groups of caucasians in the store at that moment.
I will never forget how uncomfortable I felt and how heartbreaking it was for me to see my son go through that. I wouldn't trade that experience for the world, though, as now I got just a glimpse of how 'people of color' felt in my WASP country.
Which reminds me, I keep meaning to watch 'Towelhead'. I wonder if Blockbuster has it...
ReplyDeleteYou should review it in my new movie blog.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to, even though I'm not a very adept writer! Where's the new blog?
ReplyDeleteOh, also I found out that the US title of the movie is 'Nothing Is Private', which doesn't work as well, IMHO.
Found it! Cool...
ReplyDelete