I am outraged as a legal U.S. citizen with a son who has gone to battle twice in Iraq to protect our country. I want answers to how an idiotically run state government office can allow what I saw.
On Friday, Oct. 30, 2009, while I was driving down Highway 20 towards Lebanon, I saw a newer black Ford Explorer. He was in front of me. The vehicle had a tinted back window of a Mexico flag and a license plate that read "Ilegal."
Is this not a slap in the face? How did DMV allow this? Does the INS know about this?
I am so sick and tired of the illegals doing what they want and where they want to whomever they want. I know that "Mexifornia" has taken over California, but here in Oregon too?
Are we now known as "Or Gone South Olé"? It is pathetic and I think DMV should be fined for allowing this. And the driver of this vehicle, be aware because when I see you again on the road, I will have INS on speed dial on my cell phone and alert them. You like advertising like this? Go back to where you came from.
Kim Lawrence, Sweet Home
The Democrat-Herald contacted the vehicle's owner, Mary Ann Patricio of Sweet Home. She said that her husband, Jesus, is from Mexico and at one time entered the U.S. illegally but obtained his citizenship about eight years ago. "I support good, decent people who are trying to come here to build a better life and to do good," Patricio said. "I don't support those who come here and do bad." The license plate is her way of showing that support.
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It seems odd that the DH contacted the vehicle owner because of this hysterical letter.
ReplyDeleteI think the posters are being hysterical.
ReplyDeleteIt's a free country and a person can put whatever they want on their license plate. It doesn't prove any of the letter writer's assumptions about the driver.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's hysteria all around. I'm not sure what the DH thinks it's accomplishing, but that's the effect.
ReplyDeleteWhat they are accomplishing isn't right.
ReplyDeletePersonally I do not think the owner of the vehicle should have been contacted (or how the owner was even found by the DH).
It is one thing to clarify from a city, county, state, or federal agency. Quite another to contact a private party, that for no other reason than someone investigating the "Opinion", who readers would never have associated a name with.
Someone must be bored in the moderating department since Austin and Enigma are not there anymore.
I figure by Tuesday there should be about 70 posts and over half of them insulting one another...
While I agree that this is a rather interesting letter and reaction from the DH; each party has the right to say what they wish.
ReplyDeleteThe letter writer is free to write what they wrote as is the licence plate owner. It's a stupid plate and there is no accounting for poor taste, but I have no problem with the DMV for it.
I agree it's a bad letter; however if written better and in different tone it's a perfectly decent question they are asking.
As to the DH's reaction, again, I find it interesting, yet I do not think it wrong. We need a media who is willing to ask questions on a whole host of issues including ilegal immigration. Why not?
Lastly, remember the plate owner is under no obligation to answer any questions, yet they made the choice to answer.
Matt's gonna have a fun time with the comments on this one...whew!
ReplyDeleteYou're right, momofthree, that the person has the right to display what they want on their plates.
But I do not like the idea that just because someone obtained legal status at some point makes the fact that they came into the country illegally somehow ok or makes it vanish. I further dislike a smug attitude regarding such, as it seems Ms. Patricio exhibits. I think I'd be a bit more humble had my husband's illegal entry been overlooked and that he is now a citizen. I know people who did it the hard way. I also know people who had to leave the country because their work visas had run out. They didn't cheat the system.
Of course, I'm making some assumptions myself. Perhaps the guy was deported, then got a conscious and decided to come back by legal means...she doesn't paint it like that though.
ReplyDeleteBottom line for me is if you're here illegally, it is wrong, no matter how hard-working you may be. I sympathize with those who want to make a better life, but still do not support illegal immigration.
Barefoot would ask me who's going to pick the lettuce. I think you'd have to ask yourself what would happen if we went back in time to before there was so much illegal immigration and play the tape from there without the illegal immigration to answer that. Further, there are a lot of legal migrant farm workers.
I do agree that is seems very tacky for the DH to contact the owner of the car, but perhaps they felt like the owner should have a chance to say their piece when someone is doing such a slander job on them.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with everything you've said Vicky!
ReplyDeleteLike I said on the thread.
ReplyDeleteIt is evidently the registered owners right to advocate illegals.
It is my right to advocate for more policy and laws concerning controlling the illegal immigrant problem.
It sounds like Jesus did do it the right way.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't news, it's just the paper turning people against each other for profit.
I support amnesty, and compassion.
'you'd have to ask yourself what would happen if we went back in time'
When the borders were different.
"This isn't news, it's just the paper turning people against each other."
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree (Somewhat). I think there is a greater issue however.
"I support amnesty, and compassion."
If you support border enforcement, and enforcement of our immigration laws are you therefore not compassionate?
I do not support amnesty, and if you are here ilegally then you should be held accountable for that. If you immigrate legally then I say welcome and join us. Otherwise you are breaking the laws of the land on which you intend to make your home.
It has nothing to do with empathy, sympathy, compassion, or guilt for me. Of course as a human being I feel for those who live in other Countries who are far worse off than me. I don't see how feeling bad, and having compassion, empathy, and/or sympathy should make me turn a blind eye to the law(s).
At times I feel bad for people who break the law due to personal circumstances; I however do not let them skate simply because of it...
"When the borders were different."
ReplyDeleteYes, a world without borders is a nice idea. However, it isn't that way. I simply cannot go to most other countries without following the rules and live there. This includes Mexico. Go there illegally and they will throw your ass in jail and throw away the key.
When I said go back in time to before illegal migrant workers were picking crops I meant that US citizens and LEGAL migrant workers did it. Grapes of Wrath, case in point. There are so many people out of work now that I'll bet the crops would get picked.
Out of curiosity, Ajai, what type of amnesty do you support? We must take this to it's logical end. Do we give amnesty to everyone crossing illegally? Or just to those who are already here and make it a cutoff point? Note that this has already been done in the past. What message does this send to those who are still in Mexico (or any other country) about crossing the border illegally? Why have immigration rules at all if we will give amnesty on a regular basis? What would the consequences be of an open border?
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that a reporter for the local newspaper weighs in with his opinion and knowledge (?) of Kim Lawrence on the thread.
ReplyDeleteI am now more concerned about the ethics of Lee Enterprises than I am in the topic it self.
Were any of you familiar with Kim Lawrence prior to her writing this editorial?
I ask because he refers to her comments on the DH site.
I have never seen anyone commenting with the name Kim Lawrence, so unless I've missed it, he would be referring to a name she uses anonymously and not the name "Kim Lawrence".
He did not say "because of the letters she has written to the editor and the interviews she has given".
Being a long time Journalist, I am pretty convinced he would have written it that way.
Instead he wrote this:
"Anybody who has followed her comment's on the DH site or read her statement in interviews with the paper shouldn't be surprised at Kim's racist outburst. She also hate's liberals, the media, all non-Christians and just about anyone who doesn't share her poisonous view of the world."
1.While I assume they do not guarantee anonymity on the comment threads, you would think that they would practice due diligence.
That is akin to my writing a letter to the editor, having a member of their staff with an intense dislike of me for whatever reason, so they out me as an anonymous contributor (maybe she did not want people to know she comments).
2.I do not like the idea of them NOT instructing their staff that information on a commenter is confidencial.
3.Considering they have my full name, email address, and phone number, yet I use "momofthree" Does that mean if a reporter does not like me (as Larry Coonrod might not after reading my comments to him) he certainly could do damage considering the avenues he has.
Again - Ethics, or lack there of, and for which a profession is held to a higher standard based on knowledge in that particular profession.
I do not encourage illegal activity, but at the same time laws are only effective when they make sense. If a person is here and they contribute to our society I don't really see how they are any less legal than a person who was born here. I believe removing these people would have a devastating impact on our economy worse than what we have already seen.
ReplyDelete""WE DIDN'T cross the border, the border crossed us." This slogan of the immigrant rights movement expresses an historical fact--that much of the Western U.S. was once part of Mexico.
ReplyDeleteThe U.S. seized half of Mexico--including Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California--in the Mexican-American war of 1846-48. The war cost almost 14,000 U.S. and twice as many Mexican lives."
http://socialistworker.org/2006-1/586/586_13_Border.shtml
I hope to see a play this weekend in Portland if it is not sold out.
ReplyDelete"Autumn at Portland's Miracle Theater means the annual celebration of the Day of the Dead. The 2009 version may differ from the broadly acrobatic fun of recent years, but the warm-hearted "Canta y No Llores (Sing and Don't Cry)" makes for feel-good entertainment. Put together by the company under the auspices of director Olga Sanchez, this spirited play is often touching but never slips into maudlin sentimentality. It is, in fact, a cheerfully upbeat salute to the importance of song, dance and faith during trying times.
As a comment on our own economic woes, "Canta y No Llores" is set during the Great Depression. The play centers on Raúl (Enrique E. Andrade) and his wife Consuelo (Verónika Nuñez), who have fled California to a rough Oregon forest abode to escape the forced repatriation or deportation that befell many Depression-era Mexican and Mexican-American agricultural laborers whose jobs were sought by white Americans coming West from the midwest dust bowl.
Despite the narrow-minded prejudice they experience, the generous Raúl and Consuelo take in three homeless vagrants: the reserved Eduardo (Carlosalexis Cruz), an itinerant Puerto Rican carpenter; the wide-eyed teenage Mary (Melanie Meijer), a "train orphan" who enthusiastically dreams of Hollywood stardom; and the heartbroken Miguel (Osvaldo "Ozzie" Gonzalez), a Texas goat-herder who roams the West lamenting his young wife's death. The five form a tight community bound by music and dance.
Wandering among these living characters but unseen by them are the returning dead: Raúl and Consuela's good old friends Felicia and Severino (Rosa Floyd and Sherman Floyd), Miguel's wife, Dorotea, (Nicole Virginia Accuardi), and Mary's idol, the deceased actress Mae Catrina (Rebecca Frost Mayer).
These spirits bring a touch of good humor to offset the emotional and economic losses suffered by the living. The playful give-and-take of the Floyds and Mayer's Mae-West-like wry humor nicely counterpoint some of the piece's more sorrowful moments.
Also intriguingly balanced are the various musical numbers drawn from Mexican folkloric tradition, on the one hand, and the popular 1930s musical repertoire on the other. Sad Mexican folk songs alternate with popular Depression-era tunes like "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" and "Life is Just a Bowl of Cherries." A mesmerizing Vera Cruz "Brujas" folk dance performed by the women in broad skirts and with candles perched on their heads contrasts well with the company's entertaining and tautly choreographed parody of a Busby Berkeley rendition of "We're in the Money."
Though an occasional tentativeness or physical awkwardness is noticeable among the company members, the performers give us vividly distinguished characters who are refreshing in the simple clarity with which they are drawn
As diverse as these various characters are and as divergent as the musical and dance traditions that the production explores, the play holds together surprisingly well. In this, one can see Sanchez's skilled directorial hand.
Sanchez's artful manner of shaping the whole is most apparent with the celebratory climax. At play's end, when the living characters build an altar to celebrate the Day of the Dead, the worlds of the living and the dead merge. For this final scene representing a victory over all hardship, even death, Sanchez orchestrates movement, sound and light into a stirring crescendo -- one that sends audience members home with smiles on their faces and hope in their hearts.
-- Richard Wattenberg, special to The Oregonian
http://www.oregonlive.com/performance/index.ssf/2009/11/review_canta_y_no_llores_sing.html
I agree with your last comment momofthree, I also am skeptical of their ethics and journalistic standards.
ReplyDeletemomofthree, I agree that it is very strange on the part of the DH to have a reporter say those things, but I can't say it surprises me!
ReplyDeleteAjai,
ReplyDeleteNone of the people who are coming in to this country were alive during the Mexican-American war. Those people are citizens of a country whose leaders signed a treaty with the US surrendering that land.
Further, I might also ask: How far back in time do you want to go to determine who really owns the land on the Mexican-US border?
Modern Mexico has a history similar to ours: Spanish colonists in Mexico led the war for independence from the Spanish empire. Most Mexicans are at least partially of Spanish decent. Do they really own the land that their ancestors stole from the indigenous peoples of the area that is now Mexico? The problem is that it would be near impossible to determine which Mexicans are purely indigenous and then to somehow compensate them for the land that we stole from the people who stole it from them.
Does that mean that I think that the US occupying Texas, California, etc. and claiming independence (leading to Mexico declaring war on the US, actually) was the right thing to do? No. But the way things work is that borders are drawn when wars are won and the territories within those borders are governed by the rulers of the country that won them.
As far as the effect on the economy of keeping illegal immigrants out, I would like to have more solid evidence that that would be the case before I accept that argument. I simply think that there are plenty of legal immigrants and citizens that would fill the void. I would even argue that it might improve the economy by not keeping wages in those occupations at a low level, diminishing the tax base, and siphoning off money to another country.
See the film A Day Without a Mexican.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel particularly entitled to any land, and I take the words on the statue of liberty literally.
ReplyDeleteSensible immigration reform is obviously needed, but should be as humane as possible with focus on halting exploitative practices.
ReplyDeleteOk, um...does ANYONE really think that an illegal alien would put a Mexican Flag on their car and the word "illegal" on their license plate?
ReplyDeleteThis is more about getting the anti-immigrant folks all up in arms than anything else.
As to COE's point that "it's a perfectly decent question they are asking." I'm not sure what the question was. This looked to be, merely, an attack on Mexicans. Nothing more, nothing less. There were no useful points in this letter, as far as I can see.
It's interesting to note that, since it has become more difficult for immigrants to "illegally" enter this country, we have seen an increase of "illegals" staying in this country.
"Sensible immigration reform is obviously needed, but should be as humane as possible with focus on halting exploitative practices."
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. And to continue, work should be done to promote wage equality and working standards in Mexico itself, not to have them all come here, many to not even make it here alive. What is the US doing about this? We have a free trade agreement with Mexico and should put pressure on the government to make the conditions of workers better in Mexico. I think to turn a blind eye toward illegal immigration itself keeps poor conditions in Mexico at the status quo. This includes those who hire illegal immigrants so they can get away with cheap labor and avoid following workers' rights.
"I don't feel particularly entitled to any land."
ReplyDeleteOK, so you would feel in your rights to emigrate to any other country you wished, work undocumented, avoid paying taxes, drive without getting a license, and send your money to another country?
"I take the words on the statue of liberty literally."
Freedom is not without conditions, anywhere. We take the freedom of felons away daily.
"This is more about getting the anti-immigrant folks all up in arms than anything else."
ReplyDeleteWell if you ask me, that was the mistake of the owner of the car. There are many people, including myself, who are all for LEGAL immigration.
"I don't feel particularly entitled to any land, and I take the words on the statue of liberty literally."
ReplyDeleteIf I might, this can't make sense without living in the confines of a 'country.' We say to come to our country from yours so that you can be free. But I can't wrap my mind around the idea that we can have a country without having a border. If we dissolve borders, whose rules do we live under, ours? Theirs? No ones?
Personally I think that both Kim Lawrence's letter and Ms. Patricio's response do nothing to resolve the issues surrounding the many problems associated with illegal immigration.
ReplyDeleteThey only serves to further deepen the gap between the 'sides'.
"Well if you ask me, that was the mistake of the owner of the car"
ReplyDeleteI doubt it, I think it was the point of the owner of the car.
"They only serves to further deepen the gap between the 'sides'"
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more!
There's a pathway to citizenship, shown here, that might not be direct, possibly even to the degree of being an otherwise good citizen.
ReplyDeleteThe car issue is silly. Would a confederate flag get the papers interest?
Lou Dobbs is off CNN, I'm doing the dance of joy.
ReplyDeleteI don't think felons should be deported either, it's way too easy to get a felony.
ReplyDelete"...it's way too easy to get a felony."
ReplyDeleteI'll agree with that!
"There's a pathway to citizenship, shown here, that might not be direct, possibly even to the degree of being an otherwise good citizen."
ReplyDeleteFor one, I don't think the ends justify the means. For another, you can only speculate about what a good citizen this person is or isn't.
Perhaps INS needs to start a new unit to somehow look into a crystal ball to see if this or that person will be a good citizen. Hell, why stop at the illegal immigrants? Maybe they can psychic out the legal ones as well and nip any in the bud who won't be good citizens. Maybe The Men Who Stare At Goats can join in that effort :)
"I don't think felons should be deported either"
Huh? Maybe you're cracking a joke, but I said nothing about deporting felons. The only reason to deport felons is if they are from another country. I wasn't talking about that at all. Simply using the example of felons losing rights, for instance they don't get to vote while they're in prison, as an example of how freedom is not without conditions.
"I doubt it, I think it was the point of the owner of the car."
ReplyDeleteWell, you wouldn't know that by her and her husband's family's comments on the thread: "I can't believe how racist you are, blah, blah..."
I agree with Vicky completely.
ReplyDeleteLegal immigrants can be deported if they are convicted of a felony.
ReplyDeleteI don't really see it as an ends justifying the means argument, that argument is for the powerful, it's more a matter of necessity.
I can understand the car owners being upset. The paper likes to target minorities for public ridicule.
ReplyDeleteWhen you take the Oath of Allegiance to become a naturalized citizen of the United States (or even dual citizenship) then you pledge (among other things) to honor the Constitution and laws.
ReplyDeleteThe letter would probably not have created the stirrings it did, if not for the reaction of the registered owner and her family.
I agree with COE, the registered owner could have chosen to not have talked to the DH ( I would not have ).
I am not happy with the way somethings are handled by the newspaper, but the target was the issue of illegals, if there was a target.
Is your argument that it is illegals that are the minority?
Someone brought up in the thread that if another person raped or murdered another, if they turned themselves around, should they not be allowed to have MURDER on there license as well?
Proud that they murdered, but now they don't?
Proud that they are illegal, but now they aren't?
Legal Immigrants should be deported if they commit a felony.
ReplyDeleteYou can, as well, be here legal immigrant without ever becoming a US Citizen.
An illegal can marry a U.S. Citizen and become legal without ever "working hard" to be here legally, or working hard to become a US Citizen.
A person willing to risk there life and freedom to live here has more respect for our country than anyone else.
ReplyDelete"A person willing to risk there life and freedom to live here has more respect for our country than anyone else."
ReplyDeleteI completely disagree and think that you draw a false general conclusions from this. Those people come here to make life better for themselves and their families. Those are good virtues, but it doesn't automatically mean they have ANY respect for this country. It is purely selfish.
Also, there are US citizens that risk their lives on a daily basis, often for our country. Police officers, firefighters, and military to name a few. I don't know how you can make the statement that someone coming here illegally to better their personal situation has more respect for the US than these people.
Please also keep in mind the many illegal immigrants who don't work a lick and collect services on the backs of taxpayers. I am not saying they all do this or even that the majority do. I don't know the numbers. But they do it. I don't see a bone of respect for this country in those ones.
ReplyDeleteI should qualify my last post. Obviously, IMO, there is a spectrum of how much respect a person in any group has for this country. My point being that I don't think you can make the sweeping statement that you made about illegal immigrants having more respect than citizens.
ReplyDeletemomofthree, I liked what you had to say on the comments thread. You have a special point to add since you immigrated here yourself.
ReplyDeleteI liked the exchange between Ajax and tohot as well. They make some excellent points.
Just out of curiosity, Vicky. You seem to have some passion around this issue, is there some personal reason for that?
ReplyDeleteThat's not supposed to be a "leading" question, I was just wonderin'.
Also, a general question to all...many of those "illegal" immigrants have had children here, what do you suppose should be done about that?
Just wonderin'
Vicky's comments on 12, Nov @ 4:43PM is very sensible.
ReplyDeleteMexico has done very little to work with the United States on illegal drug traffic or human traffic due to instability within it's own government.
Unfortunately the United States has done little to make a clear statement that it is not only expected, but demanded.
You are right Tom. In the fact babies, that are sometimes referred to as "Anchor Babies" can account for anywhere between 350,000 to a half million births a year - depending on who is giving the data.
I am afraid you will not like my answer since I am a person that believes that for every choice that you make that is not in you or your families best interest, there is a consequence.
Why would a mother or father choose to have a child knowing that they committed an illegal act that creates consequences for their child?
From what I understand illegals that have babies here are still illegals. Illegals should be deported.
I appear to be insensitive. I know this. I have been to Guatemala twice and Mexico twice on humanitarian missions.
I am not opposed to rendering aid. I am not opposed to assisting the Mexican people in making a more stable and democratic government.
I just feel that it needs to be done in Mexico, not Mexico coming here.
Not off topic, but another perspective, the week of 23 November through 30 November is Red Ribbon Week which began because of- - DEA Agent Enrique “Kiki” Camarena.
ReplyDeleteHe was tortured, then murdered in Mexico.
"Why would a mother or father choose to have a child knowing that they committed an illegal act that creates consequences for their child?"
ReplyDeleteWhat with Roe vs Wade no less!!! How could a Mother and a Father "Choose" to have all of these children?
All you have to do is just go down and get an abortion. Just ask Planned Parenthood; they'll point you in the right direction!
My point was not abortion.
ReplyDeleteMy point was entering the United States illegally for the purpose of having a child.
The original letter brings up nationality and, to an extent, ethnicity with the 'Mexifornia' comment. The territory used to be called Aztlan.
ReplyDeleteI can say something positive about the work ethic of indentured servants, and even undocumented workers. It is well and good to have respect for all people that help society function, including the laborers. Society works as a machine, and every part is important, we need people to help it along.
The paper recently reported that a young latina returned to work the next day after being held at gunpoint the previous day. That does not surprise me. Culturally, Mexicans and Mexican-Americans are raised with a strong work ethic.
This is also true about most of the Mexicans I have worked with, as I have held a slew of minimum wage jobs throughout the years.
My father is from India and he was sworn in as an American citizen long ago. When he was dying, my Grandpa on my moms side visited. He was a World War II veteran who recieved a Purple Heart, before he died, was completely blind and missing a leg from diabetes. I wasn't sure what to make of it when he confided to me that his parents were 'probably wetbacks.' It would seem is parents made a trek from Chihuahua to San Antonio to work.
I guess my Grandpa could be called an 'anchor baby,' but they called him Juan, though I remember he would occasionally go by Jon. They worked, as many undocumented immigrants did, in building hospitals, roads, schools, and even prisons.
I am thankful the laws can at times be sane in dealing with real people, as the law is fluid. Its hard to know for sure what one would do, if they are not in the same situation. I think most people would be willing to break the law if it means being able to be with and provide for their children.
Tom, I could write on and on in answer to your question about why I am passionate about this topic. I'll try to limit it to a few.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I break from most of my fellow liberals on the issue, so it is important to me to flesh out my own reasoning. It would be much easier for me to jump on the liberal bandwagon stance that liberals don't have a problem with illegal immigrants, but I don't feel that way.
Second, it stems from a sense of fairness. I know some people from various countries (Russia, China, Ukraine, Bulgaris, Mexico) who have done the difficult work to become citizens. It takes from 10 to 20 years to go from work visa to green card to obtaining citizenship. They are all some of the most hard working people I have met in my life and came here to better their situation and if you think Mexicans have a hard life you should hear my friend from Ukraine's stories from home.
Just like someone who cheats on an exam to get into college compared to the person who studies hard and earns it, it arrouses a sense of wrong in me.
I'm also selfish...yes, I admit that, and I think most of us are at some point. I'm willing to help a homeless person by giving food to them, but I am not about to let a homeless man sleep in my house if I don't know anything about him. I have things, such as my and my son's life, to protect and won't risk those to help that person to that extent.
Similarly, I feel cheated by those who come here illegally, even if they are hard-working, because they don't pay taxes, unless they have stolen a SS number. Worse are those who don't work and collect social services. I don't like it when rich people cheat on taxes and I don't like it when illegal immigrants do it either.
oops, that should be Bulgaria.
ReplyDeleteI lived in Southern California until I was 23. I also lived in New Mexico for 2 years. I, too, worked along side Mexicans, mostly legal immigrants, but some were definitely illegal. Most of them do have a strong work ethic, although just like any group of people, you can't say they are all the same. Americans also have a strong work ethic. I know some pretty poor and lower middle income Americans who have worked and continue to work multiple jobs, long work weeks, etc.
ReplyDeleteAs for the children born here of illegal immigrants, that is a touch ethical question. I don't think being separated from their parents is a great idea, so why would we not deport them as a family? I mean, what would it be like if they had never immigrated here and had their family in Mexico? Again, the US should be pressuring Mexico to take care of their own by providing security nets for those who are deported.
Just some thoughts. No disrespect meant to you or your family, Ajai.
http://www.urban.org/publications/900898.html
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/business/19illegals.html
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2008/04/10/20080410biz-TaxingImmigrants-10.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9615621
http://urbanhabitat.org/node/4318
I didn't say that, Ajai, nor do I think it and I'm also not saying I have all the correct answers on this topic. I was simply thinking out loud on the topic of children born to illegal immigrants and the possibility of them being separated from their parents. You're an adult, your parents were citizens when you were born, so the situation doesn't apply to you.
ReplyDeleteI looked up the tax issue and apparently many illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. Some don't. It is an interest issue:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/
I'm glad I read your post before you removed it, Ajai. I agree that you are no less an American citizen than I am.
ReplyDeleteSee why this is such a complex topic?
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6161
ReplyDeletehttp://lawprofessors.typepad.com/immigration/2006/05/myths_v_facts_o.html
http://www.pb.org/itvs/thecity/immigration1.html
http://cmd.princeton.edu/files/POM_june2007.pdf
Should be
ReplyDeletewww.pbs.org/itvs/thecity/immigration1.html
It is complicated because it concerns matters of national identity. Also, life in general is complex, and difficult.
ReplyDeleteI can understand the frustration of those who are somehow penalized for following the rules. I see this as a flaw in the system itself, which speak to why immigration reform is needed.
ReplyDeleteI am a big fan of the notion that if your born here, you are a citizen.
"It is complicated because it concerns matters of national identity. Also, life in general is complex, and difficult."
ReplyDeleteI agree. There aren't too many things that are cut-and-dried. Shades of gray...
So what do you mean by immigration reform exactly?
I'm interested in knowing what Tom thinks immigration laws should be too. Should we limit the number of people allowed to immigrate each year.
"I am a big fan of the notion that if your born here, you are a citizen."
So am I. But what is the answer to the children of illegal immigrants? Perhaps they get to return as adults as citizens? I don't know.
"Allocate sufficient visas to close unlawful migration channels. One of the great failures of our current system is that the level of legal immigration is set arbitrarily by Congress—as a product of political compromise. The allocation of employment visas to workers should be depoliticized and placed in the hands of an independent commission that can assess labor shortages and determine the number and characteristics of foreign workers to be admitted, with Congress’s approval."
ReplyDeletehttp://reformimmigrationforamerica.org/
I removed my earlier message because it sounded kind of silly when I reread it. Sorry about that.
ReplyDelete"All you have to do is just go down and get an abortion. Just ask Planned Parenthood; they'll point you in the right direction!"
ReplyDeleteHow about planning a pregnancy? How about thinking about what you're going to do about raising a family as an illegal immigrant before starting one?
For the record, Planned Parenthood doesn't not 'point you in the right direction" for an abortion. They don't sway people into having abortions and the vast majority of the services that they provide are not abortions. They provide contraception, education, std testing and treatment, pap smears, exams for pregnant women, ultrasound, prenatal counseling and nutrition, and on and on. I know, I used to volunteer there.
"I removed my earlier message because it sounded kind of silly when I reread it. Sorry about that."
ReplyDeleteI can understand why you would react the way you did and I probably would too if it were me. Not silly.
"My point was not abortion."
ReplyDeleteI know, I know, I just love to spout my right wing propaganda when ever possible... :)
"How about planning a pregnancy? How about thinking about what you're going to do about raising a family as an illegal immigrant before starting one?"
Why bother? Why, when you can head on down to the clinic and get rid of the thing?
Why plan and take personal responsability and have a little fore thought? You don't have to, remember? Ahhh gotta love it! Ain't America great? Who wouldn't want to come here illegally?
By the way I am partially kidding, just to show the absurdity of the whole thing.
I agree whole heartedly that people should plan for and plan against (Birth control) having or not having a family...
I must not be educated enough about PP. It's my years of Republican indocranation. Maybe I should do a little digging and see for myself huh...
I do agree with you Vicky on all your points with reguards to immigration... Are you scared? You're in agreement with an evil right wing'er... :)
I apologize, in advance, for the likely length of this post. But, I wanted to respond to a few of the posts here.
ReplyDeletemomofthree, I found it interesting to read that went on humanitarian missions. I was wondering if you would be willing to elaborate on those missions? I don't mean to pry, but it sounds interesting and I was hoping to learn more.
As Vicky's question about my view on what to do about the issue. Let me answer that with a few questions. But before I do, I want you to know that I don't have a good answer. I think the whole thing is very complicated and has very little to do with the actual individuals who come to this country and more to do with why they feel the need to do so.
Here's my questions; Why do we care? Seriously, Vicky responded that she didn't think it was right that some cheat to get here while others don't. Is that really the reason we displace families? It's merely a principle about cheating? I mean, people break the law all the time, right? I'll return to my highway speed example. I went 70mph yesterday driving to Portland (don't tell your pals, COE!). Am I bad? Am I as bad as the person who climbs a fence in the hopes of finding work so he can support his family? Certainly, my motives for speeding were not as significant...I just wanted to get there
So, is it really the "principle" that we don't like those who break the law? I'm glad Vicky did some checking on the tax issue. Because, if you think about it, illegal immigrants DO pay taxes in, at least, almost all states except this one because most states have a sales tax. So, in the respect, they do support others by the taxes they pay. But, in addition to that, Employers withhold taxes for each employee, for things like SS, etc..., I don't think these illegal immigrants come to this country to work to they can try and collect SS, do you? Most of them probably never see it.
So, is the issue really taxes? I have a hard time believing that.
Finally, what would happen if, somehow, ALL these illegal immigrants were to go through bureaucratic process of becoming legal. How does that change anything? Seriously, if we were able to help each and everyone attain citizenship, do you all suddenly feel better about these people? If so, why do you think that is? Just because, now, they can vote? Now they can call themselves "citizens"? Do you think the government coffers would suddenly be richer because all the illegal immigrants became citizens.
I doubt it.
What percentage of the workforce is made up of illegal aliens, anyway? About 4%?
I don't have a good response to what I think we should do about illegal aliens because I don't see it as a very big issue. Certainly not in comparison to all the other issues we have to deal with as a country.
I guess I have just never understood the passion people have around this. That's why I asked Vicky if she has some personal story regarding this. Where does the passion come from?
Again, I apologize about the long post.
Finally...abortion? Really? COE, you are in rare form! ;0)
Tom, you have some great points. I actually thought about the importance of this issue last night and also concluded that compared to issues such as illegal wars, etc., this is not the most important problem facing the US nor myself.
ReplyDeleteI further felt like a shelfish shit for having such a strong stance on the issue, me who has so much. It is only by sheer luck that I happen to have been born in the US.
We form our opinions of issues based on what information we have and sometimes it is misinformed and is always imperfect There is an Eastern philosphy story that says something like 9 people looking at the same object will all see something different depending on the angle that they view it from and no one will ever see all sides, something like that.
When I looked up the tax issue, the stats said that about 2/3 of illegal workers pay taxes and never collect SSI and many never even file a tax return and get that money returned either (which is another point that occurred to me...at such low income levels they would be paying no federal taxes anyway!).
Breaking the law has different meaning depending on the law, as you make clear with your speeding example. Obviously coming to the US ilegally isn't equivalent to committing murder, but I would probably put it as a more agregious offense than speeding. I would still like to see the rest of the undocumented workers be documented.
I do question, though, whether it isn't a good idea to limit the number of people who come into the US to live. Is there some point where we would be overpopulated?
Still, you are right. There are much bigger fish to fry.
Vicky,
ReplyDeleteYou are not a selfish shit. At least, that's my opinion. My point wasn't to make anyone feel bad, just to understand where the passion comes from and if, at the root of it, if this is just about not liking that someone is "getting away with" something.
Anyway, thanks for your last post. It is a very difficult issue to answer, but it's important that we first recognize what the "actual" problem is.
To answer your last question...I have no idea. Sometimes, I think that if we made it easier for folks from Mexico to get temporary working visas, they might be more inclined to work here on a seasonal basis and then go home.
But, I don't know....
"Are you scared? You're in agreement with an evil right wing'er... :)"
ReplyDeleteNo, I have my light saber and the force to protect me from the Dark Side ;)
Tom, it wasn't you who made me feel like a selfish shit, just my own reflection on the issue.
ReplyDeleteFor me that is the value of discussions like these...to clarify your thinking and see if anything new comes from them and changes them.
My resolve got cracks in it.