I agree with the tactic, coming out is good for the soul, and rights. It worked in the past, and besides honestly is oftentimes the best policy.
Too bad we need to have our civil rights subjected to a popular vote though. After the recent election there was a couple of really annoying columns by so-called liberals on the Huffington Post, about how the problem is the Gay rights movement. As if we somehow change our political tactics and beg harder for our rights, and act more assimilated we would convince more people to vote in our favor. To hell with that!
I would remind them that during the time Loving v. Virginia was past over 70% of the populace did not approve of interracial marriage.
"The job of the gay community is not to deal with extremists who would castigate us or put us on an island and drop an H-bomb on us. The fact of the matter is that there is a small percentage of people in America who understand the true nature of the homosexual community. There is another small percentage who will never understand us. Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That's our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay sentiment." ~Bayard Rustin
"As if we somehow change our political tactics and beg harder for our rights, and act more assimilated we would convince more people to vote in our favor. To hell with that!"
I agree with this and have thought about this quite a bit. I sometimes actually cringe at some of the pleas for gay rights, where the message is 'we are just like you', 'we stand for family values', etc. I mean, what does that mean, we are just like you? There are straight people who are family folks and straight people who are not. Straight people who are spiritual and straight people who are not, etc., etc. Why in hell wouldn't gays and lesbians be just as diverse and individual as any other 'group'? And why should they (you) be any certain "way" to have your rights recognized?
The extent of which antigay bias is accepted is troubling. That's what makes coming out so difficult. In some cases it is the best thing in the world. In others it could mean losing family, freedoms, and life.
I find people are open at times, and not at others like most people. It's good to accept oneself.
"The extent of which antigay bias is accepted is troubling."
Can you elaborate on this, Ajai. Are you talking about things like someone not being hired because they are gay, subtleties (or not so subtle) like gay jokes, or all of the above. I'm not trying to be obstinate, just trying to get a feel, from your perspective, of the extent.
I'll have to tell you a story. I have a group of friends (friends of a friend, really) that I see periodically and one of them just moved out of the state (a guy). There is a sort-of joke that one of the other guys really, really misses him, like in a love affair sort of way. This joking bugs the shit out of me, so I ignore the conversation. But I often don't know whether I'm being overly sensitive or whether I should just tell them to cut the gay jokes. It's a weird place to be but I often wonder how a gay person, especially a closeted one, would feel in that situation.
Of course if the person was out already, the jokes might not ever happen in the group. The jokes would stay in the closet, I suppose.
Vicky, Ajai, are these the kind of "Gay" joke(s) that offend you? I took this as more a slam to those who oppose Gays in the military...
I am not sure if either of you watch Gary Un-married. There are running jokes using word play. Example being; on a guys weekend they call Sausage fest they get together and make and then eat sausage. They make tee-shirts up, and there are jokes throught out the show about sausage fest and how they really should change the name.
I for one would kill for that weekend as I love sausage. I am straight, and yet I do not feel uncomfortable when jokes are directed at my sexuality. Granted it's different I know. Just wondering... I don't want to offend, but sometimes the line is blurred in comedy. To one it's hilarious, to another it's offensive... I think comedy or jokes are the funniest when that is the case. I have always been a fan of comedy that is out on the edges...
I guess I was referring to all of the above. In the context of coming out, I was thinking about kids that lose their homes when their parents kick them out. I mean, this can be a society where that is okay, but being Gay isn't? Maybe there is a tacit approval of homophobia.
Lots of malicious gay jokes can be annoying, but it sounds like your friend, at least misses his friend. I don't know. My response to jokes that make me uncomfortable is usually to tell another joke that makes everyone even more uncomfortable. Of course, it's the type of response that could get a Gay guy fired, but I respond to humor with humor.
Yeah, like next time someone says, 'Frank keeps Harold's (made up names, of course) picture by his bed and gives him a kiss every night' I can say, 'Ha, that's funny! Did you guys see Brokeback Mountain? That was hilariious when they beat the guy to death because he was gay. Or how about Boys Don't Cry? Wasn't that hilarious when the guys beat the shit out of Brandon Tina?'
Sorry for jumping in to the discussion so late in the game. I read your post, Vicky, about the guys "joking" and your feeling uncomfortable about it and wanted to share my perspective as a long time ally to the GLBTQQIA community.
As allies, we need to realize that we also have a "closet" that we can (and do) go in to. Meaning, if we say nothing when others are having fun at the expense of our gay friends, we are, essentially, in the closet. And, sometimes, that's ok. Just like those who are Gay or Lesbian or Trans, we allies have to pick our battles. So, don't feel guilty if you don't speak out every time.
Having said that, I can tell you what I would do, and have done. I would ask them, nicely, to stop. I have many GLBTQQIA friends and I don't appreciate it when others marginalize them by making jokes.
I've done that and can tell you what happened. People stopped saying those kinds of things around me. I am certain they didn't stop all together, but they did stop when they were around me.
Just remember, there can be ramifications to this because, just like those in the GLBTQQIA community, you never know what will happen when you "come out", so you have to decide for yourself if it's worth the risk. Personally, I found that I lost some "friends" when I did it. And, you also put yourself at risk in other ways. I'm almost certain I didn't get a promotion at one point because of my support for the GLBTQQIA community.
Hey, Tom! Thanks for the input. Just to be clear, these people aren't your typical conservative anti-gays. They are fairly liberal or at least left-leaning. As Ajai pointed out, they really don't mean anything by their subtle humor and support gay rights, but in my opinion it is the 'harmless' comment that permeates our collective thinking and can perpetuate prejudice thinking.
I don't have a problem with letting people know that I stand for equal rights and don't see GLBTQQIA people as anything but that - people. I've had to do this with conservative family members, but I find it is actually easier when it is blatant bigotry because 1) it is difficult to ignore, and 2) they already think I'm a liberal nut-case so I might as well go the whole nine yards on them. I find it still effective to start simply by doing something like responding to their comments such as 'Oh, there go those queer neighbors of yours' with 'Are they harming anyone?'
My problem with the subtle jokesters is coming up with the most effective method to disarm them in the moment. The risk of losing friends doesn't bother me, just looking for the best method to deal.
I agree with the tactic, coming out is good for the soul, and rights. It worked in the past, and besides honestly is oftentimes the best policy.
ReplyDeleteToo bad we need to have our civil rights subjected to a popular vote though. After the recent election there was a couple of really annoying columns by so-called liberals on the Huffington Post, about how the problem is the Gay rights movement. As if we somehow change our political tactics and beg harder for our rights, and act more assimilated we would convince more people to vote in our favor. To hell with that!
I would remind them that during the time Loving v. Virginia was past over 70% of the populace did not approve of interracial marriage.
"The job of the gay community is not to deal with extremists who would castigate us or put us on an island and drop an H-bomb on us. The fact of the matter is that there is a small percentage of people in America who understand the true nature of the homosexual community. There is another small percentage who will never understand us. Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That's our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay sentiment." ~Bayard Rustin
"As if we somehow change our political tactics and beg harder for our rights, and act more assimilated we would convince more people to vote in our favor. To hell with that!"
ReplyDeleteI agree with this and have thought about this quite a bit. I sometimes actually cringe at some of the pleas for gay rights, where the message is 'we are just like you', 'we stand for family values', etc. I mean, what does that mean, we are just like you? There are straight people who are family folks and straight people who are not. Straight people who are spiritual and straight people who are not, etc., etc. Why in hell wouldn't gays and lesbians be just as diverse and individual as any other 'group'? And why should they (you) be any certain "way" to have your rights recognized?
The extent of which antigay bias is accepted is troubling. That's what makes coming out so difficult. In some cases it is the best thing in the world. In others it could mean losing family, freedoms, and life.
ReplyDeleteI find people are open at times, and not at others like most people. It's good to accept oneself.
"The extent of which antigay bias is accepted is troubling."
ReplyDeleteCan you elaborate on this, Ajai. Are you talking about things like someone not being hired because they are gay, subtleties (or not so subtle) like gay jokes, or all of the above. I'm not trying to be obstinate, just trying to get a feel, from your perspective, of the extent.
I'll have to tell you a story. I have a group of friends (friends of a friend, really) that I see periodically and one of them just moved out of the state (a guy). There is a sort-of joke that one of the other guys really, really misses him, like in a love affair sort of way. This joking bugs the shit out of me, so I ignore the conversation. But I often don't know whether I'm being overly sensitive or whether I should just tell them to cut the gay jokes. It's a weird place to be but I often wonder how a gay person, especially a closeted one, would feel in that situation.
Of course if the person was out already, the jokes might not ever happen in the group. The jokes would stay in the closet, I suppose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aotlEpmAFVQ
ReplyDeleteVicky, Ajai, are these the kind of "Gay" joke(s) that offend you? I took this as more a slam to those who oppose Gays in the military...
I am not sure if either of you watch Gary Un-married. There are running jokes using word play. Example being; on a guys weekend they call Sausage fest they get together and make and then eat sausage. They make tee-shirts up, and there are jokes throught out the show about sausage fest and how they really should change the name.
I for one would kill for that weekend as I love sausage. I am straight, and yet I do not feel uncomfortable when jokes are directed at my sexuality. Granted it's different I know. Just wondering... I don't want to offend, but sometimes the line is blurred in comedy. To one it's hilarious, to another it's offensive... I think comedy or jokes are the funniest when that is the case. I have always been a fan of comedy that is out on the edges...
I guess I was referring to all of the above. In the context of coming out, I was thinking about kids that lose their homes when their parents kick them out. I mean, this can be a society where that is okay, but being Gay isn't? Maybe there is a tacit approval of homophobia.
ReplyDeleteLots of malicious gay jokes can be annoying, but it sounds like your friend, at least misses his friend. I don't know. My response to jokes that make me uncomfortable is usually to tell another joke that makes everyone even more uncomfortable. Of course, it's the type of response that could get a Gay guy fired, but I respond to humor with humor.
I have a shirt that says Sausagefest.
ReplyDeleteYeah, like next time someone says, 'Frank keeps Harold's (made up names, of course) picture by his bed and gives him a kiss every night' I can say, 'Ha, that's funny! Did you guys see Brokeback Mountain? That was hilariious when they beat the guy to death because he was gay. Or how about Boys Don't Cry? Wasn't that hilarious when the guys beat the shit out of Brandon Tina?'
ReplyDeleteConversation stopper.
I like the Onion. Using stereotypes to point out their absurdity does not offend me.
ReplyDeleteVicky, I like it, kind of edgy, but I like it.
ReplyDeleteI like to just spell out what's implied, like 'wow he's a Gay homosexual, he must miss being regularly sodomized...'
'or, wow, what a fag, he must feel very emasculated...'
but I like your style, maybe 'In Uganda you could be killed for that...'
Often times when cornered most people will admit that 'they didn't really mean anything by it...' and if they did, well, that's educational too.
ReplyDeleteWell...Edgy is my middle name...grrrrroooowwww.
ReplyDelete"Using stereotypes to point out their absurdity does not offend me."
ReplyDeleteYes, like the 'You know how I know you're gay?' bit at the end of 40-year-old Virgin.
'You know how I know you're gay? 'Cause you listen to Coldplay.'
Sausagefest...hmmmm...what if I wore that shirt ;)
ReplyDeleteSorry for jumping in to the discussion so late in the game. I read your post, Vicky, about the guys "joking" and your feeling uncomfortable about it and wanted to share my perspective as a long time ally to the GLBTQQIA community.
ReplyDeleteAs allies, we need to realize that we also have a "closet" that we can (and do) go in to. Meaning, if we say nothing when others are having fun at the expense of our gay friends, we are, essentially, in the closet. And, sometimes, that's ok. Just like those who are Gay or Lesbian or Trans, we allies have to pick our battles. So, don't feel guilty if you don't speak out every time.
Having said that, I can tell you what I would do, and have done. I would ask them, nicely, to stop. I have many GLBTQQIA friends and I don't appreciate it when others marginalize them by making jokes.
I've done that and can tell you what happened. People stopped saying those kinds of things around me. I am certain they didn't stop all together, but they did stop when they were around me.
Just remember, there can be ramifications to this because, just like those in the GLBTQQIA community, you never know what will happen when you "come out", so you have to decide for yourself if it's worth the risk. Personally, I found that I lost some "friends" when I did it. And, you also put yourself at risk in other ways. I'm almost certain I didn't get a promotion at one point because of my support for the GLBTQQIA community.
Just some things to consider....
Hey, Tom! Thanks for the input. Just to be clear, these people aren't your typical conservative anti-gays. They are fairly liberal or at least left-leaning. As Ajai pointed out, they really don't mean anything by their subtle humor and support gay rights, but in my opinion it is the 'harmless' comment that permeates our collective thinking and can perpetuate prejudice thinking.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with letting people know that I stand for equal rights and don't see GLBTQQIA people as anything but that - people. I've had to do this with conservative family members, but I find it is actually easier when it is blatant bigotry because 1) it is difficult to ignore, and 2) they already think I'm a liberal nut-case so I might as well go the whole nine yards on them. I find it still effective to start simply by doing something like responding to their comments such as 'Oh, there go those queer neighbors of yours' with 'Are they harming anyone?'
My problem with the subtle jokesters is coming up with the most effective method to disarm them in the moment. The risk of losing friends doesn't bother me, just looking for the best method to deal.
Thanks for the ideas. I think just talking it out helps me to not be a deer in the headlights during those moments.
ReplyDeleteThis is cool, I hope it grows out of the MN area:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.facebook.com/pages/Do-You-Know-Dave/129659209885