I really hope that we hold out for single-payer, but I don't know that it will happen. This country is too steeped in the anti-socialist mentality that people fight tooth-and-nail against it even if they don't know how great it might be.
I keep thinking of the Cuban health care system in Sicko...
Why John? And how do you feel about SS, disability insurance, the FDIC, etc? Also, are you happy with the state of health care in the US? If not, what would you do to change it?
VH, I see the past 50 years of this Nanny State and Federal Government entitlement programs as a way for Government to gain power over and keep the populace dependant. We have over 50 years proof of it. It's in the pudding so to speak. Now we are going to add health care to it... As far as SSI goes, I see so much corruption, and dependancy it pisses me off. Everyday I see it. You want to "fix" SS put me in charge of it! No not really, but it's something people say... I guess I figure why can't I put "my" money, (Which takes work to generate) into an account and do with it when I retire what I want? Disability insurance is a great thing provided you're paying for it. I don't want you paying for my insurance! I have several different "insurance" policies to protect myself and my family. I want this protection so I pay from my paycheck for it... Look, I understand there are people out there who cannot provide for themselves. I understand that these people need help. I just don't see the Federal Government as the fix... Especially if it's over a long weekend, and it's forced upon me!
All that said, it's a one party system and it will get done. It will pushed through... I do find it funny that even with the one party system the "Blue Dogs" are worried about re-election... Could it be that maybe not all of America wants this huge Government to grow some more with a socialized medicine program? I just can't wait to see how it effects me...
Do you really feel like the US government has more power over people since 50 years ago because of the welfare state? I mean what are we talking about here? Gestapo roundups of people for speaking against the state? Being arrested for ‘contraband’? Or what? OK, just kidding.
My grandmother was a kid during the depression and I will always remember her stories of how dreadfully poor people were then. I can’t help but wonder if that would have been the case if there was a welfare system in place at the time of the stock market crash or how many fewer people would have jumped out of windows because their life savings went ‘poof’ overnight.
What would have happened, I wonder, with our current crash had there not been social security in place? I know that everyone’s private retirement plans, including mine, took a huge plunge. What about the people who are already retired? What would they do if they did not have SS?
I value self-reliance just like you do, but the fact is that hard times can fall on anybody, anybody, and it’s not always a matter of poor planning. I believe that we need to think as individuals, but that we also must think as a society. Something like half of the bankruptcies in this country are because of medical bills and in many cases those people are hard-working, honest individuals just like you and me. You really want to say, ‘tough luck’ to those people? There is something hugely wrong with a system that leaves so many people’s lives in devastation while at the same time the heads of insurance companies and pharma are enjoying caviar on gold-lined plates and spending our premiums on lobbying (watch the CIGNA whistle-blower video on Democracy Now if you don’t believe that this really happens).
Sure, government systems aren’t perfect and there will be those who cheat the system. I hate that. I know that there are people collecting welfare checks when they could be out working, etc. But I think this imperfection in the system is a small price to pay for having that safety net.
I work for the feds and I do see some government waste there. I also see many, many people who feel beholden to the taxpayers and do their duty to NOT waste. You cannot believe the oversight for purchasing things in the government! I will tell you the details sometime but let’s just say that you’d have to be a complete moron to try to rip off the system in my workplace.
But I also see a lot of waste and inefficiency in private sector too, not to mention, what the hell happened to the quality of products and services in the US (another topic, I suppose)? To stick with health care for an example, I cannot tell you how many times my insurance claims have been screwed up, and I have Federal Blue Cross! So, how wasteful is the back and forth fixing of claims between the doctors and the insurance companies, not to mention the time I have to spend telling both parties how screwed up the claims are!
Finally, if these social programs result in repressive government control of populations I have to wonder why there are uprisings in countries like Britain and Canada who have socialized medicine. It seems to me that the majority of the people think these systems are working quite well.
Vicky, great to hear from you! I think our difference lies completely in our idea(s) of what the Federal Government should do. What powers they should have. I like the Alabama Constitutions' explanation. [Quote]"The sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression." (Art. 1, Sec. [End quote] is our Government like the Nazis, and are people being or going to be rounded up? Of course not it’s much more subtle. Sadly in some ways just as dangerous long term. If you thought the Patriot act was bad, then erosion of personal freedoms should scare you across the board no matter in what form!
I would say IMHO the proper role of our Federal Government includes maintaining national defense and for protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign despots or domestic criminals. We have three branches of Government to do this... The executive, the Legislative, and Judicial fit nicely in the role of maintaining national defense and for protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign despots or domestic criminals.
I just don't see how we claim the power to redistribute the wealth or force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. What happened to personal freedom? What happened to risk versus reward? Why does the Government want more and more control of our everyday lives?
Henry Grady Weaver wrote: [Quote]"Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own....THE HARM DONE BE ORDINARY CRIMINALS, MURDERES, GANGSTERS, AND THIEVES IS NEGLIGIBLE IN COMPARISON WITH THE AGONY INFLICTED UPON HUMAN BEINGS BY THE PROFESSIONAL 'DO-GOODERS', who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others - with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means."[End quote]
To further put that quote into perspective. By comparison, America traditionally has relied on individual action and charity. The result is that the United States has fewer cases of genuine hardship per capita than any other country in the entire world or throughout all history. Even during the depression of the 1930's, Americans ate and lived better than most people in other countries do today.
I also have to mention that we are the United States of America. Has everyone forgotten that the States have rights as well? If I call Washington D.C. I will likely get nowhere. However If I drive to Salem I might get somewhere. This is the beauty of local Government. It is much more accountable, and accessible. We the people! We have the ultimate power, and somehow we have forgotten this. It really is all moot because there is a one party system right now. There is no real check or balance right now. It will get rammed through. I will get put in the “system” and we’re off to the European/Obama utopia we were all promised.
I needed to digest what you said as I am not in disagreement with what you are saying, in theory. It would be nice to think that something as complex as the United States could have such a limited role for government: defense and protection of the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, or as you put it another way protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign or domestic criminals.
Let's unpack what the latter two ideals mean, because I think there is a broad spectrum of what can fit into these definitions. For instance, should there be labor laws? Remember how workers used to be exploited in this country, forced to work under unsafe and inhumane conditions? Even children? Where would we be without the labor laws that changed the face of how workers are treated in this country? Don't those laws fall under the heading of the protections you outline above?
I don't see a plan for universal health care as purely a form of redistribution of wealth. Once could argue that it sort-of is because the poorest in our society will likely not have to pay the taxes to support the system and they will be able to use it (this already happens, by the way...hospitals willtreat emergency room patients and our taxes will pay for it). But does that mean that the incomes of the poor and rich are going to ever be equal? No. I see the plan for universal health care, for one, as getting rid of a criminal component in our country, namely the corrupt insurance companies. This also falls under the protection of life and liberty you outline above.
I think the problem with the ideal that you lay out above is that it is a Catch 22. Our system has been set up to favor the rich and to give corporations too much power. Therefore, government needs to step in and change that, IMO, in order to protect things you outline above.
I do not think there can ever be a purely capitalistic society that will work. The result of this is that too much power becomes concentrated into the hands of too few people at the expense of all the rest of those in society. In this case, I think government does need to step in and shift the balance of power in order to protect its citizens.
I really hope that we hold out for single-payer, but I don't know that it will happen. This country is too steeped in the anti-socialist mentality that people fight tooth-and-nail against it even if they don't know how great it might be.
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking of the Cuban health care system in Sicko...
Count me as one of those anti-socialists...
ReplyDeleteDarned anti-socialists!!!
ReplyDeleteWhy John? And how do you feel about SS, disability insurance, the FDIC, etc? Also, are you happy with the state of health care in the US? If not, what would you do to change it?
ReplyDeleteAn argument for Single-payer health care
ReplyDeleteVH, I see the past 50 years of this Nanny State and Federal Government entitlement programs as a way for Government to gain power over and keep the populace dependant. We have over 50 years proof of it. It's in the pudding so to speak. Now we are going to add health care to it... As far as SSI goes, I see so much corruption, and dependancy it pisses me off. Everyday I see it. You want to "fix" SS put me in charge of it! No not really, but it's something people say... I guess I figure why can't I put "my" money, (Which takes work to generate) into an account and do with it when I retire what I want? Disability insurance is a great thing provided you're paying for it. I don't want you paying for my insurance! I have several different "insurance" policies to protect myself and my family. I want this protection so I pay from my paycheck for it... Look, I understand there are people out there who cannot provide for themselves. I understand that these people need help. I just don't see the Federal Government as the fix... Especially if it's over a long weekend, and it's forced upon me!
ReplyDeleteAll that said, it's a one party system and it will get done. It will pushed through... I do find it funny that even with the one party system the "Blue Dogs" are worried about re-election... Could it be that maybe not all of America wants this huge Government to grow some more with a socialized medicine program? I just can't wait to see how it effects me...
ReplyDeleteHi COE! Good to hear from you.
ReplyDeleteDo you really feel like the US government has more power over people since 50 years ago because of the welfare state? I mean what are we talking about here? Gestapo roundups of people for speaking against the state? Being arrested for ‘contraband’? Or what? OK, just kidding.
My grandmother was a kid during the depression and I will always remember her stories of how dreadfully poor people were then. I can’t help but wonder if that would have been the case if there was a welfare system in place at the time of the stock market crash or how many fewer people would have jumped out of windows because their life savings went ‘poof’ overnight.
What would have happened, I wonder, with our current crash had there not been social security in place? I know that everyone’s private retirement plans, including mine, took a huge plunge. What about the people who are already retired? What would they do if they did not have SS?
I value self-reliance just like you do, but the fact is that hard times can fall on anybody, anybody, and it’s not always a matter of poor planning. I believe that we need to think as individuals, but that we also must think as a society. Something like half of the bankruptcies in this country are because of medical bills and in many cases those people are hard-working, honest individuals just like you and me. You really want to say, ‘tough luck’ to those people? There is something hugely wrong with a system that leaves so many people’s lives in devastation while at the same time the heads of insurance companies and pharma are enjoying caviar on gold-lined plates and spending our premiums on lobbying (watch the CIGNA whistle-blower video on Democracy Now if you don’t believe that this really happens).
Sure, government systems aren’t perfect and there will be those who cheat the system. I hate that. I know that there are people collecting welfare checks when they could be out working, etc. But I think this imperfection in the system is a small price to pay for having that safety net.
I work for the feds and I do see some government waste there. I also see many, many people who feel beholden to the taxpayers and do their duty to NOT waste. You cannot believe the oversight for purchasing things in the government! I will tell you the details sometime but let’s just say that you’d have to be a complete moron to try to rip off the system in my workplace.
But I also see a lot of waste and inefficiency in private sector too, not to mention, what the hell happened to the quality of products and services in the US (another topic, I suppose)? To stick with health care for an example, I cannot tell you how many times my insurance claims have been screwed up, and I have Federal Blue Cross! So, how wasteful is the back and forth fixing of claims between the doctors and the insurance companies, not to mention the time I have to spend telling both parties how screwed up the claims are!
Finally, if these social programs result in repressive government control of populations I have to wonder why there are uprisings in countries like Britain and Canada who have socialized medicine. It seems to me that the majority of the people think these systems are working quite well.
That should say 'I have to wonder why there are not uprisings in countries like Britain and Canada who have socialized medicine.'
ReplyDeleteVicky, great to hear from you! I think our difference lies completely in our idea(s) of what the Federal Government should do. What powers they should have. I like the Alabama Constitutions' explanation. [Quote]"The sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression." (Art. 1, Sec. [End quote] is our Government like the Nazis, and are people being or going to be rounded up? Of course not it’s much more subtle. Sadly in some ways just as dangerous long term. If you thought the Patriot act was bad, then erosion of personal freedoms should scare you across the board no matter in what form!
ReplyDeleteI would say IMHO the proper role of our Federal Government includes maintaining national defense and for protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign despots or domestic criminals. We have three branches of Government to do this... The executive, the Legislative, and Judicial fit nicely in the role of maintaining national defense and for protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign despots or domestic criminals.
I just don't see how we claim the power to redistribute the wealth or force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. What happened to personal freedom? What happened to risk versus reward? Why does the Government want more and more control of our everyday lives?
Henry Grady Weaver wrote: [Quote]"Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own....THE HARM DONE BE ORDINARY CRIMINALS, MURDERES, GANGSTERS, AND THIEVES IS NEGLIGIBLE IN COMPARISON WITH THE AGONY INFLICTED UPON HUMAN BEINGS BY THE PROFESSIONAL 'DO-GOODERS', who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others - with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means."[End quote]
To further put that quote into perspective. By comparison, America traditionally has relied on individual action and charity. The result is that the United States has fewer cases of genuine hardship per capita than any other country in the entire world or throughout all history. Even during the depression of the 1930's, Americans ate and lived better than most people in other countries do today.
I also have to mention that we are the United States of America. Has everyone forgotten that the States have rights as well? If I call Washington D.C. I will likely get nowhere. However If I drive to Salem I might get somewhere. This is the beauty of local Government. It is much more accountable, and accessible. We the people! We have the ultimate power, and somehow we have forgotten this. It really is all moot because there is a one party system right now. There is no real check or balance right now. It will get rammed through. I will get put in the “system” and we’re off to the European/Obama utopia we were all promised.
Hi again COE!
ReplyDeleteI needed to digest what you said as I am not in disagreement with what you are saying, in theory. It would be nice to think that something as complex as the United States could have such a limited role for government: defense and protection of the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, or as you put it another way protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign or domestic criminals.
Let's unpack what the latter two ideals mean, because I think there is a broad spectrum of what can fit into these definitions. For instance, should there be labor laws? Remember how workers used to be exploited in this country, forced to work under unsafe and inhumane conditions? Even children? Where would we be without the labor laws that changed the face of how workers are treated in this country? Don't those laws fall under the heading of the protections you outline above?
I don't see a plan for universal health care as purely a form of redistribution of wealth. Once could argue that it sort-of is because the poorest in our society will likely not have to pay the taxes to support the system and they will be able to use it (this already happens, by the way...hospitals willtreat emergency room patients and our taxes will pay for it). But does that mean that the incomes of the poor and rich are going to ever be equal? No. I see the plan for universal health care, for one, as getting rid of a criminal component in our country, namely the corrupt insurance companies. This also falls under the protection of life and liberty you outline above.
I think the problem with the ideal that you lay out above is that it is a Catch 22. Our system has been set up to favor the rich and to give corporations too much power. Therefore, government needs to step in and change that, IMO, in order to protect things you outline above.
I do not think there can ever be a purely capitalistic society that will work. The result of this is that too much power becomes concentrated into the hands of too few people at the expense of all the rest of those in society. In this case, I think government does need to step in and shift the balance of power in order to protect its citizens.
Quote of the day:
ReplyDelete"Keep your government hands off my Medicare."
Spoken at a recent town hall meeting in South Carolina.