I put this woman in the same category as Octamom. They are both outliers in the spectrum of reproductive females. For both of them I have a few words: planned parenthood, birth control, and sensibility.
BTW, how do you feel about in vitro fertilization? Many extra embryos are frozen, used for stem cell research, or discarded. Is it ethical, in your opinion, to discard an embryo so that the parents can have a biological child? Is it ok if it is left frozen in perpetuity, as if that is possible?
There are currently around half a million extra frozen embryos. I kind of doubt all of those are going to be brought to term.
Gun abusers? What does that mean? Simply owning a gun does not kill people, so therefore why would it need to be illegal? Having an abortion (or multiple) does each and every time (IMHO).
If you own a gun and you use it against another person and are not justified to do so, and then guess what, you go to jail because we do have laws prohibiting people from killing each other!
As far as owning a gun and not locking it up... I agree that at the very least it's idiotic. While in and of it self not illegal, nor does it cause death by itself. Now, I was raised with weapons and saw what they could do from a very young age (Hunting). As are my children. Of course I lock mine up, however my Dad did not. We had a .22 sitting by the front door at all times as well as a shot gun in my Dad's room.
I had one friend that came over once who was curious and wanted to play with it and touch it. (This kid had never been around guns). Long story short, knowing what they could do and what my Dad would have done. Suffice to say we didn't play with the weapon(s).
Was this stupid of my Dad? Yes! Different time I suppose. Thank God I had respect for weapons and knew better. My point being; this in and of it self did not, nor would it cause death. With education, and common sense a weapon in the home is perfectly safe!
To pre-empt the next argument, if this kid would have shot himself then yes I believe my Dad would/should have been held responsible. Hence why I lock mine up!
Just to hammer the point: to compare abortion and gun ownership is Apples oranges really... Comparing my law abiding gun ownership to the birth control method of ending a life (IMHO) is sad, sick, and protected under the first amendment and legal.
Yes, some aspects of my analogy are apples and oranges. My point is this: You are presenting an extreme example of what can happen when abortion is legal and, I think, using this as leverage for making it illegal. I could be wrong about YOUR reason for putting this up, but I am not wrong that others will use this example in this way.
My analogy was simply that gun-rights advocates commonly say that you can't use examples such as accidental death by guns because of gun-owner neglect as a reason to outlaw gun ownership and I am saying that you can't use this woman's willy-nilly use of abortion as a reason to outlaw abortion.
And one other thing regarding apples and oranges: aborting a pregnancy is NOT equal to killing a person, e.g., a child who has laughed and talked and walked and who smiles at you, or a death-row inmate who has a family. If you don't think I am correct, then ask someone who has had a miscarriage and who has also lost a live out-of-the-womb sibling/parent/spouse/child and ask them if their loss was the same.
"Comparing my law abiding gun ownership to the birth control method of ending a life (IMHO) is sad, sick, and protected under the first amendment and legal."
That's not the way I presented this argument at all. I'm sorry you took it as such a personal affront as I did not mean 'your' legal gun ownership in my analogy. I thought we were striving for civil discussion, so why are you calling me sad and sick?
I took it as you were calling me sad and sick. I am a gun owner! Your statement was as follows: "owning a gun, keeping it unlocked and loaded with a child in the house...sick, sad, and legal."
The first two words in your sentence state "owing a gun" was I not supposed to take this to mean me? Or is just people who own guns and leave them unlocked?
I have gone through two miscarriages and I have to say that it was as if we lost a child each time. We both set in our minds the childs name, and even a emotional connection to that life. Did we hold the child? No, but we did hear the heartbeat! My wife took it especially hard... In our church there was a family that lost their child almost to term. Do you really not believe that child was alive? They sure did!
As far as in vitro goes I would lean towards no... I really don't know a lot about this subject so I hate to comment too much...
If I cam across as a jerk I am sorry. I didn't intend to be. I was simply using your language to "Hammer" the point. If anything I was being a smartass... Damn the written word... Sorry Viky!
It's best to speak to the general topic and not personal, and I thought that's what Vicky was doing. Ideas tend to get personalized, but they are passed through people. What I TRY to do when speaking about equal rights for homosexuals, is take myself out of the equation for a moment, I may use myself as a reference point, but don't want to just emote unintelligibly.
We can disagree on pretty weighty topics and not be terrorists or baby-killers. We can fling poo but it doesn't ever have to hit each other. This is hard to articulate, I need a jackhammer for this point. It can be difficult to be personal when that increases the chance for personal attack.
Do I sound arrogant? Of course, I'm a writer. I'm the God of this little box right here.
That's said, it is great to share information. I know we can address anything, even something as complex as the origin of life, to the details of our laws that protect a woman's rights...without taking it all personally.
It can even get personal, but there shouldn't be a need for personal attacks.
I put this woman in the same category as Octamom. They are both outliers in the spectrum of reproductive females. For both of them I have a few words: planned parenthood, birth control, and sensibility.
ReplyDeleteI hope and pray you are correct. I do have to wonder though; in a Country of 250+ million are there more of these "types" out there?
ReplyDeleteI have a few words too... Sick, sad, and legal.
How many gun abusers are there in this country? Do you want to outlaw guns based on them?
ReplyDeleteJust to hammer the point:
ReplyDeleteowning a gun, keeping it unlocked and loaded with a child in the house...sick, sad, and legal.
BTW, how do you feel about in vitro fertilization? Many extra embryos are frozen, used for stem cell research, or discarded. Is it ethical, in your opinion, to discard an embryo so that the parents can have a biological child? Is it ok if it is left frozen in perpetuity, as if that is possible?
ReplyDeleteThere are currently around half a million extra frozen embryos. I kind of doubt all of those are going to be brought to term.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2006/07/souls-ice-americas-embryo-glut-and-wasted-promise-stem-cell-research
Gun abusers? What does that mean? Simply owning a gun does not kill people, so therefore why would it need to be illegal? Having an abortion (or multiple) does each and every time (IMHO).
ReplyDeleteIf you own a gun and you use it against another person and are not justified to do so, and then guess what, you go to jail because we do have laws prohibiting people from killing each other!
As far as owning a gun and not locking it up... I agree that at the very least it's idiotic. While in and of it self not illegal, nor does it cause death by itself. Now, I was raised with weapons and saw what they could do from a very young age (Hunting). As are my children. Of course I lock mine up, however my Dad did not. We had a .22 sitting by the front door at all times as well as a shot gun in my Dad's room.
I had one friend that came over once who was curious and wanted to play with it and touch it. (This kid had never been around guns). Long story short, knowing what they could do and what my Dad would have done. Suffice to say we didn't play with the weapon(s).
Was this stupid of my Dad? Yes! Different time I suppose. Thank God I had respect for weapons and knew better. My point being; this in and of it self did not, nor would it cause death. With education, and common sense a weapon in the home is perfectly safe!
To pre-empt the next argument, if this kid would have shot himself then yes I believe my Dad would/should have been held responsible. Hence why I lock mine up!
Just to hammer the point: to compare abortion and gun ownership is Apples oranges really... Comparing my law abiding gun ownership to the birth control method of ending a life (IMHO) is sad, sick, and protected under the first amendment and legal.
Yes, some aspects of my analogy are apples and oranges. My point is this: You are presenting an extreme example of what can happen when abortion is legal and, I think, using this as leverage for making it illegal. I could be wrong about YOUR reason for putting this up, but I am not wrong that others will use this example in this way.
ReplyDeleteMy analogy was simply that gun-rights advocates commonly say that you can't use examples such as accidental death by guns because of gun-owner neglect as a reason to outlaw gun ownership and I am saying that you can't use this woman's willy-nilly use of abortion as a reason to outlaw abortion.
And one other thing regarding apples and oranges: aborting a pregnancy is NOT equal to killing a person, e.g., a child who has laughed and talked and walked and who smiles at you, or a death-row inmate who has a family. If you don't think I am correct, then ask someone who has had a miscarriage and who has also lost a live out-of-the-womb sibling/parent/spouse/child and ask them if their loss was the same.
BTW, you never answered my question about in vitro fertilization.
ReplyDelete"Comparing my law abiding gun ownership to the birth control method of ending a life (IMHO) is sad, sick, and protected under the first amendment and legal."
ReplyDeleteThat's not the way I presented this argument at all. I'm sorry you took it as such a personal affront as I did not mean 'your' legal gun ownership in my analogy. I thought we were striving for civil discussion, so why are you calling me sad and sick?
I took it as you were calling me sad and sick. I am a gun owner! Your statement was as follows: "owning a gun, keeping it unlocked and loaded with a child in the house...sick, sad, and legal."
ReplyDeleteThe first two words in your sentence state "owing a gun" was I not supposed to take this to mean me? Or is just people who own guns and leave them unlocked?
I have gone through two miscarriages and I have to say that it was as if we lost a child each time. We both set in our minds the childs name, and even a emotional connection to that life. Did we hold the child? No, but we did hear the heartbeat! My wife took it especially hard... In our church there was a family that lost their child almost to term. Do you really not believe that child was alive? They sure did!
As far as in vitro goes I would lean towards no... I really don't know a lot about this subject so I hate to comment too much...
If I cam across as a jerk I am sorry. I didn't intend to be. I was simply using your language to "Hammer" the point. If anything I was being a smartass... Damn the written word... Sorry Viky!
ReplyDeleteIt's best to speak to the general topic and not personal, and I thought that's what Vicky was doing. Ideas tend to get personalized, but they are passed through people. What I TRY to do when speaking about equal rights for homosexuals, is take myself out of the equation for a moment, I may use myself as a reference point, but don't want to just emote unintelligibly.
ReplyDeleteWe can disagree on pretty weighty topics and not be terrorists or baby-killers. We can fling poo but it doesn't ever have to hit each other. This is hard to articulate, I need a jackhammer for this point. It can be difficult to be personal when that increases the chance for personal attack.
Do I sound arrogant? Of course, I'm a writer. I'm the God of this little box right here.
That's said, it is great to share information. I know we can address anything, even something as complex as the origin of life, to the details of our laws that protect a woman's rights...without taking it all personally.
It can even get personal, but there shouldn't be a need for personal attacks.
I'm sorry to here about your losses COE.
3. It is possible to make clear one's position without seeking to destroy or defame another.
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say sorry about the miscarriages that you and your wife experienced.
ReplyDeleteIt's okay Vicky. Not your fault. Thanks for the kind words!
ReplyDeleteSorry for coming off as a destroyer/defamer :)